“There will be no buck dancing” — Questions about Jim Brown, Mike Holmgren and Randy Lerner

by Cleveland Frowns on September 1, 2010

Maybe someone in a position to do something about it should have seen it coming: A man who embraced a role as a radical civil rights activist*; who served four months in jail (including a two week hunger strike) instead of accepting community service and probation in exchange for a guilty plea on vandalism charges; who once defended Maurice Clarett against a “plantation mentality” and “slave master” athletic director Andy Geiger at Ohio State, and blamed Cleveland fans for their treatment of LeBron after a shocking playoff fall. Maybe someone upstairs would have thought to treat Jim Brown with more respect for the Legend’s past.

Maybe the Browns figured that a $100,000 salary for a “figurehead” position was kid gloves treatment, but it’s hard not to think that a little more respect for what Jim Brown stands for would have led to a better story than the one that’s unfolded here.

Here’s most of Brown’s letter to Mike Holmgren informing the franchise (and the public) of his decision to skip the Ring of Honor ceremony at Browns Stadium on September 19:

Mike,

I would hope that you would take the time to read my agreement with the Clevelend Browns. I had no contract, but I was asked to write a job description so that my duties would be clear.

That job description included two things that I think are important. As Executive Advisor to the owner, my job was to use my intelligence, and my logic to advise Mr. Lerner. The second most important thing to me was a clause in that agreement that stated that I answered to noone except Randy Lerner. These two thing were highly important to me because I truly believed, with my educational background, having been a Cleveland Brown for 9 yrs, and having a pretty good knowledge of football, that I could contibute in a valuable way to the organization.

When you called me for a meeting in your office, there was no conversation about that agreement, no conversation about my duties, no conversation about what I felt, no conversation about my relationship with the players, no conversation about my relationship with the coaches, no conversation about my relationship with the head coach, and no conversation about my community work. Ultimately there was no conversation about anything that I felt was related to my job.

Your ultimatum to me was that you would offer me the opportunity of being that of the greeter, that of a mascot, that of a person that would represent special events by his physical presence, and for those things, I would receive a salary of $100,000. All of those things that you offered me would be controlled by you. . . .

I was able to study your press conference and found your statements to be consistent in the way that you value me, and I observed the comments of the key players that sat by your side, and here was the impression I got: Your most powerful statemnt about me was that, and I must laugh, one monkey don’t stop the show. . .

But in my conclusion, I’ve never danced in the end zone, I always gave the ball to the referee, so you should know I don’t dance. Also Mike, I don’t hang out on the Westside of town. I’m an Eastside guy. I play my golf at Highland Golf Course. I don’t go to the Hall of Fame ceremonies, except on occasions, like when Gene Hickerson was inducted, and I felt very proud to be with Bobby Mitchell and Leroy Kelly in showing our respect for his great contribution, and for helping us become great players. I don’t have any trophies in my home on display. I don’t claim to be the best at anything, and I emphatically do not need validation from any man, so I will not participate in your Ring of Honor. . . .

Mike, there’s only one thing that I control in life, and that’s being a man. So let me end with a little humor, because as you say, one monkey don’t stop the show, and as I say “Willie Lynch missed a few of us”, and there will be no Buck Dancing.

From #32

Monique Brown

This looks a lot like a letter that a radical civil rights activist would write. One reaction is to criticize Brown for “injecting racial undertones” into the matter; for “conjuring injustices out of thin air.” Another is to understand that Brown basically is a racial undertone.

Growing up and playing an entire NFL career under Jim Crow had to be bad enough, but being one of the most high profile black men in the United States had to have subjected Brown to as much base hatred as any one man who lived in this country at the same time. It’s a lot more than just having been paid so little for being the all-time greatest player of the America’s most popular sport. It’s fine for Terry Pluto to point out that Paul Warfield is black too (and he’s showing up for the ceremony), but Warfield’s NFL career happened entirely after the Civil Rights Act became law.

Having come up in the world when he did, it’s easy enough to understand why the most important thing about Brown’s position with the franchise was that his duties called for him to “use [his] intelligence, and [his] logic to advise Mr. Lerner;” It’s easy enough to understand why that would have eased so much of Brown’s understandable frustration.

So since we have to assume the money isn’t that important to Brown if he’s turning down a $100,000 annual salary to show up at banquets, why did his duties have to change at all? Where’s the harm in Holmgren running the football operations with Brown keeping Randy Lerner’s ear?

Did the new regime fear Brown’s influence in the locker room, like with plantation/slave master talk? Maybe this perspective would be understandable enough with the help of a yearly discussion or at least a mandatory presentation to all new Browns on what he went through. Why shouldn’t it be easy enough for the Browns family to see Brown as an understandably, justifiably and heroically cranky grandpa?

Hard to see that the Browns family is better off without him. Hard to be surprised that Lerner and Holmgren couldn’t see this to a better ending.

———-

*”You have to realize, in the civil rights movement, there had to be radicals and peacemakers,” Brown once said. “[R]adicals like Malcolm X and peacemakers like Martin Luther King. At Syracuse, I was the radical and Ernie [Davis, the first African-American to win the Heisman Trophy] was the peacemaker, the guy everyone loved. But you needed both of us to make real changes.”

  • Teddy G’s

    LOL! Jesse Jackson was the one who said Lebron was a slave in Dan Gilberts plantation.

    Manny is back in Cleveland..Yay!!

  • WFNYCraig

    It seems like you want the world to put up with Jim Brown rather than asking him to realize that the world around him has changed. Yes, we know he is a radical civil rights activist. Yes, we know that this is based on his negative experiences as a black man during the civil rights struggles.

    Still, to handle him with kid gloves forever, without also expecting him to realize that a few things have changed around him is asking a bit much of the Browns.

    Also, it seems to me that someone who was in the forefront on the need for cultural change with the Browns with Eric Mangini a year ago would be willing to cater to an old bitter ingrate who could potentially be poisoning the locker room. It seems to me that the only person in this scenario who isn't willing to compromise is Jim Brown because he was insulted by $100,000 for a reduced role.

    The fact is that the guy he was advising OUTSOURCED HIMSELF when he hired Mike Holmgren. Maybe the boy Lerner doesn't need the advice anymore as he has distanced himself a level from the responsibility?

    It is sad that Jim Brown won't be involved in the Ring of Honor, but I blame him just as much, if not more than the Browns.

  • Chris

    I honestly cannot understand how Jim Brown could connect with any players in today's NFL. Brown played in a completely different time, and the game vaguely resembles what it is today.

    With all of the "slave/master" talk, how could you be sure he wouldn't attempt to undermine what Mangini, Holmgren and Heckert are trying to do here? For that alone, I would think that you would be on board with this.

    Anyhow, I don't think that $100k a year for attending banquets is that terrible a gig, if you can get it.

  • Teddy G’s

    Craig, when is an article coming out on your site about Phil Jackson coming to coach Mo Williams and the Cavaliers?

  • Teddy G’s

    LOL..whether the game has changed or not, players relate/talk to former players in a different fashion than others. They trust them, they have been through the same grind they are currently going through.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    "It seems like you want the world to put up with Jim Brown rather than asking him to realize that the world around him has changed."

    You nailed it, Craig. I think Brown has earned that.

    And the main point is that it probably wouldn't have taken much more than a little more respect.

    It's funny to blame Jim Brown for poisoning the locker room with all else that's happened here and all the folks who've been here. Like I said, it couldn't be hard for the family to come to an understanding on their (again, understandably) bitter old grandpa.

    Understood that Lerner doesn't "need the advice." It's about respect and symbolism more than anything else. It's why you listen and nod when your grandpa says silly things.

    By the way, for what it's worth, I haven't heard one black person take the "mainstream" position here. Haven't heard one black person put it on Brown for failing to understand how much the world has changed around him. How much the world has changed isn't the point. The point is with respect to what Brown went through.

  • George

    My sympathies generally lie with Mike Holmgren and the people who are trying to improve the organization. And it sure doesn't sound like Jim Brown was giving the organization much for its money. I mean, "using my intelligence and logic" — that's the best job description Brown could come up with?

    That said, if Holmgren actually told Brown "one monkey don't stop the show," that was awfully dumb and insensitive language to use when addressing an icon and a civil rights activist, both of which Brown undoubtedly is. So it's hard to blame Brown for seeing some racism in the way this situation was handled.

    Nobody comes out of this looking particularly saintly.

  • Chris

    I'm not blaming Brown for anything, Frowns. If a player gets fined for something stupid, and goes to Brown to cry about it, what's Brown's reply going to be?

    "Don't worry, he's just a master trying to keep us slaves down."

    Slaves. Making millions of dollars. Things have certainly changed.

    Instead of teaching concepts like responsibility, culpability, and character, how do you know that he won't do the opposite? How do you know that he HASN'T done the opposite in the past?

    I'm fairly certain that Holmgren is aware of the gravity of the situation. Brown decided to decline his diminished role, and go about his business.

    Where has Brown's "advising" to Randy Lerner gotten this team over the last decade? It got us where we are today: angry fans, awful teams, and a new structure which appears to be leading this team in the right direction, for once.

  • Chuck

    Some nice insights frowns. And you make a good case from a football standpoint of not wanting/needing the distraction of Brown.

    Still, my takeaway is a sadness from the near universal decisions of browns fans to say "good riddance" because he is the big racist.

    Looking to the merits of his claim, he has every right to be offended And paid $100K for no actual input…isn't that mascot label accurate? Or in maybe less disturbing language, he is right to consider himself a paid endorser of the product (like paying $100k to use MJ to support Hanes). Well, that is not what he wanted. And just like the Browns have a right to direct their franchise as they want, he has a right to want a real career in football (not just some figurehead).

    Either way, it is a shame to see everyone (well, actually it seems like mostly white men) turn on him, all because he does see the world differently and thru dramatic racial divisions. Well, things probably aren't as extreme as he sees it, but NEWSFLASH: we still live in a racist society.

    So maybe Brown is out of line at times, but the people that seethe at supposed "undertones" are on the much more ignorant side of the debate. Overstating problems (what Brown probably does) is troubling. Acting like problems don't exist is unacceptable. And currently, we live in a society where a stunningly offensive majority of this country wants to stop the building of a mosque (in the hollowed grounds of a burlington coat factory) for the sole reason of uninformed hatred towards a minority. So again, lets quit acting like there are not problems out there.

    (don't get me wrong: i wish guys like jim brown would do a better more strategic job of addressing their grievances….instead of defending a lebron, a nice comparison of his treatment to todays nyc muslims would be nice….but his failure to filter his message does not make him some villian, which is sadly now how he is viewed by most browns fans)

  • Cleveland Frowns

    George, I don't think Holmgren actually said that. I think that was just Brown's paraphrasing.

    The point is that Brown is going to see racism in any decision like this, and that's understandable given his experience.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    Man, no comment on the mosque, Chuck. This is a lot different.

  • Kirsten of Cleveland

    Ugh. This topic makes me feel all "soapboxxy."

    I see your point, Craig, and I think your heart is in the right place, but as a non-minority, I personally get squeamish over the idea of telling anyone to "realize that the world around [him/her] has changed." Like it's that simple.

    Imagine telling a rape victim that she really needs to "get over" what happened to her when she was 13 and stop constantly looking at men through the lens of suspicion. It sounds perfectly logical in principle, but it's never that cut-and-dried, is it? These things permanently change an individual's chemical make-up. They scar you.

    Because I will never know what it's like to have pictures on fireplace mantle of ancestors who were enslaved by other Americans, or have grandparents who were mistreated (even lynched) for attempting to be treated equally, or have parents who were routinely verbally abused, or grow up constantly wondering, "Am I secretly being judged on the merit of my character/prowess, or the shade of my skin?"

    … because I will never, ever be able to accurately empathize with all of those experiences, I really can't stomach telling another person that he/she needs to get over his/her baggage and "realize" things are different now. I can't possibly put myself in those shoes, no matter how much I might tell myself I can.

    And even if I *were* a minority (aside from being a woman, which technically could count), what gives me the right to tell another person they're not allowed to feel a certain way any more or act based on those feelings … based on the fact that *I* don't?

    I think the least I could do is don kid gloves when handling them.

    Anyway, tangent over. Sorry.

  • Biki

    i think the real thing we should look at is the quality of work or advice Jim Brown offered to Randy Lerner in all his years as Randy's "advisor".

    until we got Holmgren, the Browns have obviously made mistake after mistake since 99 with Jim Brown being in Randy's ear. so what's the big deal Jim?? it seems to me that you were not good at what you were being paid handsomely to do and now that we have some guys in Berea who seemingly know how to run an organization and are bold enough to phase you out of an "advisory" role there are some sour grapes on your part.

    we know you are one of the greatest players of all time, if not the greatest, but like Pluto says in his article, it seems like you are being very selfish Mr. Brown and not putting the team first.

  • WFNYCraig

    Kristen, I think the big difference is that this is a referendum on Jim Brown's contributions to the Browns directly. I wouldn't actually try to tell Jim Brown what to think and feel or tell him what he is justified in feeling.

    At the same time, what he is justified in feeling and what that leads him to inject into the organization is subject to judgment by Mike Holmgren (and me to a lesser extent) as it relates to the current day NFL millionaires.

    By your standards, while I would never tell a rape victim how to feel with her own personal experiences, I wouldn't invite her to come speak to a group of rape victims who choose to own their experiences in a different manner. At least that is the best I can come up with given your example.

    It is possible to support Jim Brown's right to have his feelings without allowing him to inject unnecessary feelings into the team, unless Jim Brown won't allow it and storms off with a letter.

    Pete, I agree that Jim Brown has earned his feelings, but I think Holmgren has earned the right to dictate what is around his team.

  • Pittsburgh is for Man Lovers

    Regardless of whether or not he's right or wrong, Jim Brown's world view ain't gonna change at this point in his life. Wish the Browns could have handled this with a little more tact. We know what to expect from Brown at this point.

  • Teddy G’s

    LMAO @kirsten…

    your post tells us your a woman. geez. give it up.

  • rgrunds

    FrOrange,

    You are right. Holmgren was acting to diminish the quality of the agreement between Brown and the Browns.

    Jim was correct to assert his rights to the intent and status of the original offer from the Browns.

    He wanted his experience to be used and did not want to become a greeter.

    Yup

  • Chuck

    sure, this is a lot different.

    i am just lamenting the common theme among jim brown critics that we are better off as a society not talking about race (and those that do are quickly labeled the "real" racists). It is a ridiculous position, given the existing bigotries of our society.

  • rgrunds

    Biki

    Good counter to my post.

    The Browns should have articulated a change in J.Brown's status if they felt he was a divisive influence. Lerner should have spoken with him, not Holmgren.

    I guess Brown got the message, one way or the other.

  • Chuck

    kirsten, thanks for that great parallel.

    teddy, you have truly solidified yourself as an ugly, horrible human that should be banned from life.

  • rgrunds

    Kirsten,

    your heart is in the right place, but you are naiive about race relations in America.

    The most race conscious people in America are of African slave descent.

    As slaves, they learned an ethos of hard utilitarianism, the truth of racial separation and cruelty.

    They don't particularly like white people and don't really care about your thoughtfulness.

    Like everyone else, they want money and advancement and aren't sentimental about what it takes to advance.

  • rgrunds

    Teddy,

    you're a Hog.

    Go clean your snout.

  • Biki

    yeah it's once again another blunder by Randy.. apparantly dude hasn't spoken to Jim Brown in quite some time and is probably scared of him and is hiding behind "The Big Show"..

  • Chris

    Will everyone please quit replying to this guy? We all know he's an a-hole simply looking for attention. Please stop obliging him.

  • the commenter formerly known as p

    this is easily the best piece i've read about this jim brown debacle (which is exactly what it is: a debacle).

    of course the world should put up with jim brown. the world has to put up with all of us, exactly as we are. context/history/where you come from matters – that's what makes us each, uniquely, who we are. organizations that thrive use this concept to their advantage by capitalizing on the unique perspective that each individual within the organization brings. shouldn't we want the browns to be that sort of organization?

    the way to honor jim brown for the player that he was – and for the person that he is – is to have some sensitivity to his particular place in history when you deal with him. isn't this exactly how you treat the people that you care about? and if you fail to use that sensitivity when dealing with someone, aren't you saying you don't care?
    jim brown's not an idiot. he knows when an organization says it doesn't care. and he called the browns on it. *if he's wrong, and the browns really do care, then lerner/holgrem/someone should reach out to jim brown and make amends. and if we don't care, then this organization is making a serious mistake (and showing all of us that perhaps it's not on the right track after all).

    "an old bitter ingrate" is a gross way to describe a man that has had – and still has -the strength to stand by his convictions and principles come what may. equally gross is to imply that jim brown doesn't understand the concepts of "character, responsibility, and culpability." jim brown understands that having a strong character means being responsible for your actions and being held culpable when you make mistakes – that's the way he's lived his life, taking his lumps as necessary. compare jim brown to tiger woods, michael jordan and lebron james – he's got more "character" (and more courage) than those three combined. to say that sometimes jim brown is misguided – and that sometimes he's made pretty serious mistakes – would've been a more accurate portrayal. but to waive away his very legitimate gripes by labeling him an ingrate with no character? that's disgusting.

    i suppose it shouldn't shock me that WFNY – the same folks that argued we should dump the dawgs moniker – are now saying we should dump jim brown. productive growth is not – and cannot be – accomplished by severing your ties to history/ignoring the places from which you've come. maintaining healthy roots is the only way to grow.

  • Biki

    P – maintaining healthy roots is the way to go, but not sure how "healthy" the Jim Brown roots are.. the guy quit on the Browns in his prime, and then he really hasn't been the best advisor to Randy these past 10 years either.. so if he doesn't like the offer Holmgren gave him then so be it. it seems to me that he's pissed that he's not getting paid as much as he used to for providing very little to the organization. there are many other Browns like Warfield, etc who seem to be a much healthier option..

  • Teddy G’s

    Rgrunds…How are you comparing Jim Brown to Peyton Manning? what you talking abuot, Peyton isnt even retired yet. your not making any sense

  • Teddy G’s

    Biki Jim Brown never quit on the browns in his prime. he was their best player.

  • Teddy G’s

    commentor P, we get it.

    you dont have to post your comments back to back, its painful enough to read through it one time, spare us. thanks bud.

  • the commenter formerly known as p

    sorry about that – something's wrong with my connection and i didn't realize it was sending (let alone re-sending.)

  • Teddy G’s

    thanks bud!

  • Cleveland Frowns

    No harm no foul, p. Thanks. And I agree especially re: calling Brown an "old bitter ingrate," even though he's certainly old and bitter.

    Biki/Craig: Again, I think it's silly to blame Brown for the failures of this organization over the last decade. Holmgren has plenty of control over what gets injected into this team, and it was/would have been easy enough to control any negative influence from Brown, whose perspective is a really real part of reality, and if viewed properly, should have a positive influence on the locker room.

    Again, no harm in Brown having Lerner's ear.

  • Chris

    I'm simply wondering what good has come from Brown having Lerner's ear for the last decade.

  • Biki

    i never said that i blame Brown for the Browns failures.. but he certainly doesn't seem like he provided much value, at least in the eyes of Mike Holmgren, hence the offer that Mike gave Jim. again it just seems to me to be sour grapes on the part of Jim Brown and also another sign of weakness of Randy Lerner to not handle this himself instead of hiding behind Holmgren.

    but for Brown to basically call Holmgren a racist is completely out of line.

  • Teddy G’s

    LOL @ chris, you are still clueless….what roster moves has Jim Brown done? who has he drafted? who has he released? Who has he traded for?

    Gawd, you know nothing about how the front office works do you. geeez.

  • Chuck

    rgrunds summary of how most blacks feel about whites:

    [Blacks] don't particularly like white people and don't really care about [white people's] thoughtfulness.

    Like everyone else, [blacks] want money and advancement and aren't sentimental about what it takes to advance.

    A pretty incredible comment. I would ask for some sort of citation of a radical statement like that, but i guess i can just go check out the Glen Beck message boards.

  • Teddy G’s

    Whens the next clan meeting Rgrunds, you are a racist.

  • Cleveland Frowns

    "I'm simply wondering what good has come from Brown having Lerner's ear for the last decade."

    What good is your cranky pissy grandpa at Thanksgiving?

  • Teddy G’s

    what does your gradmother have to do with this petey?

  • Chris

    "What good is your cranky pissy grandpa at Thanksgiving?"

    Why not speak about the price of beer in China? They both have the same amount of relevance.

    If you're comparing Thanksgiving Dinner to a billion dollar brand floundering in mediocrity, I'd love to hear you explain how they are comparable.

  • Biki

    Frownie are you saying the Browns should continue to pay Jim Brown between $250K and $500K to be the cranky grandpa at Thanksgiving??? CHILD PLEASE

  • Teddy G’s

    Lol…your comments are awesome Chris, such off base. entertaining.

  • Chris

    Mediocrity is actually not even accurate, that would be an upgrade over the last decade of football that I've witnessed.

  • Teddy G’s

    BIKI……the browns were not paying him 250k-500k.

    the offer was 100,000 US dollars for being the 'mascot'.

    Do you want a link?

  • Teddy G’s

    "Mediocrity is actually not even accurate, that would be an upgrade over the last decade of football that I've witnessed."
    ________________________

    Chris! LOL….come on Chris. do you not remember the year the browns made the playoffs?

    Did you 'forget' about that one.

    want a link, or how about when they went 10-6 a few years back. something tells me that is mediocre.

  • Biki

    yes Teddy, I know the offer is for $100K, but for the past several years he was being paid between $250K and $500K, at least according to Terry Pluto.

  • Chris

    57-103 for the last DECADE that I mentioned is not mediocre. Mediocre, by definition, would be 80-80.

  • Teddy G’s

    so you didnt watch those two years chris, i figured as much.

    i could give you a link to some of those above mediocre seasons, but i trust you can find them yourself?

  • Teddy G’s

    CHILD PLEASE…he was offered 100,000 a year for his new role.

  • the commenter formerly known as p

    biki – (and speaking of the billion dollar cleveland BROWN brand) i'd bet that if we could quantify all of the ways in which being associated with jim brown has benefitted this organization in any given year that number would far exceed whatever "value" anyone else has brought.

    chris – while brown had lerner's ear no brownie executive was dumb enough to use a rascist epithet when talking to a high profile civil rights activist, that's for sure.

    and biki: the point isn't $100K versus $250K. the point is that brown doesn't want to get paid to be a "mascot," that his position had never been characterized as such before, and that the suggestion that his only worth is as a mascot is insulting.

  • Biki

    OMG Teddy.. so you agree that Jim Brown was employed by the Browns prior to this nasty breakup right? According to Terry Pluto Jim Brown was paid between $250K -$500K THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS. and part of the reason he is mad is because the Browns offered him $100K instead of what they were previously paying him.

  • Teddy G’s

    OMG Biki. no the browns offered him 100k ( aka: $100,000.00 USD) to work for the browns. What are you confused about?

  • Pittsburgh is for Man Lovers

    WordPress por favor.

  • Redz.Harvest

    Handled poorly on all sides – but who leaked / gave the letter to the press? Because if he sent at the same time the letter was "delivered" to Holmgren then this is what it is – a platform to air out greater issues. So I guess that's working out pretty well for him.

    Brown's communication issues / displeasure with the team likely had already broken down. Either way it doesn't seem like Malcolm X is a natural fit to be the guy on the payroll out rep'ing the football club. It does seem like the new position is more work for less money.

    So much for the Ring of Honor.

    Doesn't Lerner live in the UK?

  • Teddy G’s

    You got that right PML. wow.

  • Biki

    we're only hearing Jim Brown's side.. we really don't know what "value" he has provided the organization these past 10 years.. and frankly whatever value he provided obviously hasn't resulted in building a winning organization. and i'm sure the embarrasment of vandalizing his wife's car and making "terrorist threats" towards her didn't provide much positive value on the organization either. regardless, if he wants to be a big baby then so be it.

    wow Teddy. you never cease to amaze any of us on how big of a moron you are. so what was Jim Brown paid LAST YEAR???

  • Teddy G’s

    I think you understand it, what are you confused about biki?

    "the Browns offered him $100K"

    is what you wrote, whats the confusion you are having here, they offered him 100k??

  • the commenter formerly known as p

    c'mon biki. in a very real, quantifiable way the browns matter (and our brand remains valuable) b/c of who we were when we had the greatest football player ever on our team (not just who we are now).
    if we only had recent history to go on, this franchise wouldn't be worth sh*t (to borrow a phrase from my cranky pissy grandma, bless her soul).

  • Biki

    It's definitely unfortunate things have played out the way they have but it is what it is. i don't think the fortunes of the Browns have diminished because Jim Brown won't be at the Ring of Honor Ceremony.. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.

    In the meantime I just want to win some football games.. at least 6 to be exact!

  • Teddy G’s

    finally figure it out biki. want a link to help you out abou the contract offer to Jimmy Brown?

  • Biki

    Teddy, wtf are you even talking about? i know what the offer was… what is even your point??

    are you denying the fact that Jim Brown was employed by the Browns the past several years and that Terry Pluto said that he WAS PAID between $250k and $500k THE PAST SEVERAL SEASONS? if you have a problem with that then i suggest you email Terry Pluto instead of continuing to be a nuisance on this board.

  • Teddy G’s

    When did i deny that? What are you even getting at? they offered him 100,000. what are you still confused about here?

  • Chris

    Quit taking the bait, Biki. That's all she wants.

    http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/blog/index.ssf/2010/08/with_his_latest_outburst_jim_b.html

    "He is upset that he no longer has the title of "executive advisor" with the team. In the last several years, he was paid between $250,000 and $500,000 annually to hang around with Randy Lerner and sometimes talk to the players at the request of the coaches. "

  • Teddy G’s

    LOL..thank you chris for giving biki the link, he seems confused here. but at least now he can read up!. i should have known better and just gave a link so he wouldnt be so confused about it.

    thanks bud

  • Chris

    That was for your benefit Ted. Biki already said what I quoted.

  • Teddy G’s

    agreed Chris, that link should help out biki tremendously. Im sensing some confusion with this guy abuot the subject.

    again, hopefully your link will help him understand.

  • Biki

    LOL, i was never confused Teddy, but thanks for your concern

  • Teddy G’s

    try reading Chris' link he gave to you, it should help clear it up for you.

    You shouuld thank chris, not me. I didnt give the link…although i probly should have know…

  • Biki

    wow Teddy, your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. did you not read the exact quote that Chris gave about what Jim Brown was paid the past several years?? ROTFLMAO

  • Biki

    Derek Anderson is the starting QB for the Cardinals! let's see how he does with the type of weapons they have around him.. having some stud RBs and an all-world WR should help.

  • Teddy G’s

    LMBO..oh biki. reading Chris' article would help you alot. it the article shouuld be the answers to all your questions, just read it once? thanks again Chris.

  • Teddy G’s

    Derek Anderson,,,sucess? in the nfl? ROFLMAO…CHILD PLEASE!

  • Biki

    well i guess that's why they play the game and why we watch.. i think it's pretty obvious the talent around him is better in AZ, so we'll see if he is the bum that he was in cleve the past couple years.

  • Teddy G’s

    Now biki…one thing at a time here bud. try reading the article so you understand the Jim Brown contract rejection. it was for $100,000.

  • Biki

    LOL Teddy, what a piece of work you are!

  • Teddy G’s

    so i take it you've read the article?

  • Diz

    I'm going to my boss tomorrow to ask for another $100k for my "advice & logic".

    I'm polishing my resume, just in case.

  • Biki

    yes teddy and it said exactly what i've been saying the entire time. jim brown was paid between $250K -$500K the past few years. this year the Browns offered him $100K, much less than what he made the previous years and he rejected it.

    so what exactly is your point again??? you just want to continue to prove to everyone what a class a moron you are

  • Biki

    btw, where is your better half Bobbie been???

  • Teddy G’s

    no. you said they offered between 250-500k per year, you probly realized you were wrong after you read the article Chris, so helpfully, provided you with.

    it was 100k

  • Biki

    nope, wrong again Teddy, i said that HE USED TO GET PAID $250K -$500K.

    where's bobbie??

  • Chris

    Bobby is gone now. Teddy has been a good boy and got back on his Aripiprazole. Glad to have you back, Teddy.

  • Biki

    Teddy said "BIKI……the browns were not paying him 250k-500k.

    the offer was 100,000 US dollars for being the 'mascot'.

    Do you want a link?"

    the link that chris posted did in fact state that the Browns were paying him 250K-500K.

    oy vey

  • Teddy G’s

    Nope, wrong again.
    read what you wrote, or at least read the article Chris has provided you.

    Reading is a good thing Biki, it could help you realize what is correct here. They offered BROWN 100k to stay on the staff.

  • Teddy G’s

    "the browns offered him 250k to500k to stay with the organization frownie"

    ________________

    Incorrect. they offered him 100,000.00 USD.

    again, read the article.

  • Biki

    Teddy you are really pissing me off, why i have no clue.

    I know what i said, i said EXACTLY WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE ARTICLE THAT I READ THIS MORNING!

    read what you wrote buddy, you said "the browns were not paying him $250K-$500k" uh, read the link bud, yes they were.

  • Biki

    uh no teddy, i never said the browns offered him 250K to 500k, now you are a liar on top of all your other great lovely personality traits.

  • Teddy G’s

    "Do you want a link?""
    ______

    Why would i want a link, you are the one that was confused, Chris (thankfully) saw this and stepped in and gave you a link, kudos to Chris for helping you out.

  • Teddy G’s

    "I know what i said, i said EXACTLY WHAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE ARTICLE THAT I READ THIS MORNING! "

    _______

    CAPS LOCK?! CHILD PLEASE!

  • Carl

    1. This may be the last piece of business that Randy Lerner dumped on Mike Holmgren.

    2. We do not know if Randy Lerner spoke with Jim Brown or not.

    3. Follow the money – word is that Brown got $500k for "advising" Lerner last year, and Amer-I-Can got a $1M donation.

    $100k is quite a hit.

    4. After Jim Brown's letter was released to the media, you be be assured that the Browns lawyer (Nance) was in discussions with multiple people.
    ________

    While Brown is trying to paint the Browns with a racist color, what he has done instead is ruin his own lawsuit against the team were he to try to get some sort of severance pay. I'd assume the Browns have in some way notified Brown that they consider the remarks he made about Holmgren and the organization to be a form of slander (I am not an attorney), and in so many words say if he tries to sue them they in turn will counter sue.

    This is a very sad situation. While I think Jim Brown is the best athlete I've ever seen in team sports (he could have gone into the Hall Of Fame as a tight end, flanker or linebacker), his lack of respect for women and men that do not do things the way he wishes them to do it, shows an individual that has simply not grown up.

    In a very positive way, while Mr. Brown may have not grown since the early 1960's, it is obvious that America has.

  • rgrunds

    FrOrange

    Teddy is taking up entirely too much space on your site.

    Is he a cousin you can't punt, or something?

  • Carl

    Look at the bright side…..

    the hating posters on cleveland.com haven't put this incident on Mangini.

    Baby steps….

  • rgrunds

    Yay Carl.

  • Believelander

    we interrupt this critical moral debate to bring you this special news bulletin:

    Teddy G is a fail.

    that is all.

    Moving on, Kirsten, I'm 100% with the not being able to tell someone to get over their experiences. Especially someone who lived it. Fought against it. But I'm 100% with Craig (and was formulating a similar post before reading his) in feeling that if Holmie feels that Brown has been injecting bile and negativity into the player corps, that he has the right to politely shift Brown away from a role with the players/owner/hands on. And while I'm 100% with Frowns that this guy should be able to give a positive message to young rich primarily black (but just as much for the white and any color) men, that DOES NOT MEAN HE WANTS TO. Or will coopoerate with the idea of a positive message.

    I don't know what happened to Mo Clarett. But a guy I worked with for years, whose opinion I value a lot, who went to school at Warren with Maurice, told me something.

    He said Maurice was one of the nicest human beings he had ever met, until Jim Brown (the name he used specifically) and others got in his ear. And that seeing the change in Mo the person, moreso than his athletic fall from lofty expectations, was a huge disappointment for him.

    what caused Maurice to purchase assault weapons and forties? I don't know. But he changed, and something influenced him. Maybe it was teammates, an uncle, whatever. But if I had suspicion that a guy with that sort of potential for negativity was around my young, impressionable millionaire superathletes, I would usher him out.

    and with the position of one of the two most worshipped men in Cleveland (and possibly all) football history, he would easily be able to (publicly; why do they keep calling these 'letters' letters, which are written from a person to a person with a media transferring it directly from one to the other..) use his position to grandstand and make the organization look bad while accusing them of racism (honestly, the 'letter's' undertones were more like…tones). And isn't that indicative of the respect he treats the Browns organization with?

  • Carl

    I read all the posts and am sorry at this late hour to bring reality into sports….

    In the past 15 years, this country has gone through an economic shakeup unlike anything since the Great Depression, and it climaxed about 3 years ago.

    Not only did millions of people lose their jobs, many that kept theirs were asked to take huge pay cuts ("give backs"). And people that later got other employment have gone to work for a fraction of what they were making.

    Those people came from multiple ethnic groups, and both genders. Some of those people had overcome terrible and unjust things that happened to them. Yet most were wired enough to reality to not try to go to the media and present the situation as some sort vendetta against them because of deeply held prejudices.

    This whole thing is a red herring.
    ___________

    Newsflash – two years ago the Cleveland Browns had a waiting list of well over 10,000 people wanting to buy season tickets. Under Mike Holmgren they have tripled the size of their sales department, and are advertising tickets for sale on TV, radio, and the salespeople will pester your cell phone and e-mail, because not only is the waiting list gone, but existing ticket holders and ticket buyers canceled.

    So Mr. Brown sent the letter to the Plain Dealer? Funny. I have friends that work at the Plain Dealer. In March of last year the PD gave employees the option of accepting generous buy-out packages to leave. Most took it leaving PD employees at well under 40% of the people it had just a few years ago. The ones that didn't take the buy out came to work and found out that if they wanted to continue working there, then they would have to not just accept a radically cut base salary, but that they would also be taking unpaid vacations a number of times a year (which is why suddenly Pluto, Livingston, Shaw and others stop writing for 2 weeks….they're all working on books).

    The point is that none of these PD people ran to the TV and radio stations crying out that the world was unjust (and the radio and TV station people have been cut to the bone).

    Sorry to bring the real world into it.

    This entire discussion is a red herring, and it's a pity that so many have been entrapped.

  • Carl

    Moving on, Kirsten, I'm 100% with the not being able to tell someone to get over their experiences. Especially someone who lived it. Fought against it.
    _____________

    Believelander,

    I've been on here for about 6 months. The discussions here are like college kids talking about how society should act, when the rest of society is out there trying to get by.

    I've had more then a few unjust things happen to me in my life. One that totally ruined my life and set it on a downward course that took me the better part of 15 years to recover from. Am I supposed to come on chatrooms and kevetch about the unjust tings that happened to me. Heck, Biki and Teddy will make fun of me.

    No one needs to tell anyone to get over their experiences. Because anyone saying to, or saying not to, will have no effect. This is stuff for Oprah.

    There's a real world out there. One deals with it or they don't. But good luck trying to tell others how to act.

  • Biki

    good points Carl, although budget cuts in the slowly dying print newspaper industry (which is not necessarily due to the economy) isn't exactly the same as the Browns trimming their budget.

    But who knows if Jim is actually upset about the cut in salary or the actual role/title he would have with the team.

    Again, none of us are privy to the conversations that the Browns have had with Jim Brown and we're only getting one side of the story. We'll see what/if Holmgren says about it.

    but boy was #32 a beast: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cCXNBeVfc

  • Carl

    He said Maurice was one of the nicest human beings he had ever met, until Jim Brown (the name he used specifically) and others got in his ear. And that seeing the change in Mo the person, moreso than his athletic fall from lofty expectations, was a huge disappointment for him.
    _______

    It happens.

    I had friends that were working with the Indians when Kenny Loftan came up. He too was about the nicest, outgoing, easy-to-get-along with person they had ever seen. Albert belle hung around Kenny, and within two years he was a problem – which is why he was traded fro Cleveland to Atlanta, the braves players nerve liked him and he was let go to come back to Cleveland, and when the Indians let him go he played for numerous teams and never for more then a year at a spot.

    If if weren't for Albert Belle – Kenny Lofton would be going into the hall OF Fame….heaven knows he had the talent.

    P.S. And Albert and Eddie Murrey joined with Lofton in giving Manny an attitude.

  • Teddy G’s

    "But who knows if Jim is actually upset about the cut in salary or the actual role/title he would have with the team. "

    ________________________

    LOL..yes biki, you finally read the article, the offer was for 100,000.00 finally you took the help from chris and read up on the subject, good job.

  • Biki

    LOL Teddy, you really are an amazing individual. Can you please bring Bobbie back, he was much cooler.

  • Believelander

    carl, that's part of my biggest thing. Everyone's got their problems, and it's why I only judge Teddy. But that's because he's a retread. It doesn't change the fact that Jim lived in the end of an awful era in this nation. A time when the people moving to change things got killed, threatened, abused, beaten, whatever. MLK died for trying to change things and Jim Brown wouldve seen the headline firsthand.

    so I respect the guy for his trials. And you for yours.

    but I don't go out of my way to tell people that they should hate anything just because of my own trials. And as the rest of my post stated, I'm not okay with the idea of Jim Brown telling Browns players in ANY way that they're slaves on a plantation, and if he was and I was Mike Holmgren, I would fire him outright. My post was merely trying to look at the complexities of the issue posted from the different perspectives of Kirsten, Craig, and Pete. But in the end I don't feel JB is that positive of a locker room influence and am nonetheless sad to see all is not kosher in Brownstown with a patriarch of the legacy.

    sometimes, though, you can't handle people with kid gloves. Not even age and experience. Brown writing a Plain Dealer article razzing Mike Holmgren in plain view of all of the Browns' fans and players shows his level of discretion with the organization's reputation. So I will chalk it up to divergence of interests and say that I will not disapprove of the Browns for quietly trying to tell JB he wasn't wanted around the clubhouse, but that his support of the team is still greatly appreciated (enough for a six figure salary). Nor, I guess, do I fault Brown for not wanting a lesser role.

    I just don't like him suggesting that Jim Crow was behind the Browns' decision.

  • Teddy G’s

    again, thank Chris, he is the one who gave you the link to the article so you could inform yourself.

  • Biki

    BTW, quality start for Carrasco, too bad the bullpen couldn't hang on, but not a bad start for the kid.. maybe he could turn out to be a decent addition to the rotation next year.

  • jimkanicki

    biki, thanks for the clip. what jumped off the screen was the downfield blocking of the o-linemen. those guys booked to get out in front of brown and always found someone to block. PB must have ran those guys to death in camp.

    on the issue at hand, my takeaway is the same as chuck's. brown is who we know him to be. holmgren might have been more tactful, but i've seen nothing to suggest he's not a thoughtful, kind, intelligent leader/manager. so, like chuck, 'my takeaway is a sadness from the near universal decisions of browns fans to say "good riddance" because he is the big racist.'

  • Biki
  • Carl

    Believelander,

    My favorite artist in my lifetime is Bob Dylan.

    Bob too "spoke out" in the 60's (millions of us did), and even was taped singing in front of farm workers in Mississippi working with his friend Pete Seeger.

    But Bob never claimed to be "political", and has always said he was never any sort of "protest singer".

    Bob has grown over the years, thought I'm not sure he really changed. Most of us are who we always were.

    Terry Pluto wrote the best article on this situation today in the PD.

    Jim has had a rap sheet going for decades. That's the reality.

    Making excuses for people behavior is silly and subsequently can hold down the person doing it.

    Saul Alinsky (an organizer and professor that advised young SDS leaders) made it a point to constantly tell them that being raised poor and lacking in amenities did not make a person judicious and understanding of others. This is an important fact of life, one that so many of the young and those of liberal thinking (and I do NOT dislike or disrespect liberals) oftentimes cannot seem to get past.

    I've recently had troubles with a relatives son. He got busted a few times smoking pot. The smoking pot bothered me some. The getting busted part more then once makes me think this kid is not too bright. But he's entering college, and his friends are just as screwy and irresponsible. He told his parents he likes to get high because it helps him see spiritual things. That's nice. I told them to tell him that the Arizona immigration law was put in primarily over an incidents in southern Arizona where Mexican drug cartels had been burning and looting farms for years, and finally murdered a farmer that was known throughout the community for helping others. That was the last straw. And I told him to tell his kid about an incident in NYC around the mid 80's which enraged the city. Turns out that a mother, 5-7 of her children, one of her parents, and a few friends had been gangster-style executed in an apartment in NYC. The entire city was appalled. Front page stuff for a week. What they finally found out was that her husband and the father of the children was alive. It seems that he misrepresented himself in some dealings with the Columbian Drug Cartel. When that happens, they don't kill a person. Rather, they kill his entire family and let him try to live with it. The moral of the story is that my relatives kid is running around like some airhead thinking "everybody's doing it", and not only is messing up his life (he got kicked off the baseball team this year when he should have been all-city) because he's too hung over during the day to carry out his responsibilities, but by his actions he's supporting a murderous, corrupt element that has made its way into America.

    Like Lebron James, Jim Brown had the right to do what he did. And like Lebron James, Jim Brown cannot take responsibility for his actions, and has to make up a straw man…..a guy that just took a year off of football to do missionary work with his wife helping build house floors for people in areas of Mexico that are impoverished. Everyone in the NFL knows that if you're going to imply a NFL person is a racist, Mike Holmgren is about the last person you want to point to.

    Sports creates guys like James and Brown that think everything is all about them. And what they've shown us is that sports do NOT build character (a myth – see assistant Dean John Zipp at U of Akron that has done research and written books on the subject), and that just because a person is graced with great physical talents, it does not necessarily follow that they are graced with mental ability as well.

  • Carl

    biki, thanks for the clip. what jumped off the screen was the downfield blocking of the o-linemen. those guys booked to get out in front of brown and always found someone to block. PB must have ran those guys to death in camp.
    ______________

    jimkanicki,

    I saw all of Jim Brown's games- in person, on TV, or via weekly highlights after listening to the games on radio.

    Jim Brown was simply so much better then any other football play out there, it was ridiculous. Anyone telling you that Jim did what he did because of blockers, needs to head back in the womb where they belong. Brown dominated football games like Michael Jordan dominated basketball games….and there are 22 guys on a football field at one time, not 10.

    Jim Brown never blocked because he never had too. Paul Brown knew it, and used him as a decoy. The great middle linebacker of the Giants – Sam Huff – started it at the behest of his coach Allie Sherman. Wherever Brown went, Huff followed. Then other teams started doing it. If you look at films of games, you'll see that when Brown went left of right after the snap, the MLB, OLB and safety followed him as well. In effect, when Brown didn't get the ball, he still took 3 guys out of the play without blocking. Ken Colman used to joke about it showing films on the 'Quarterback Club" every week.

    Jim Brown was a better receiver and pass catcher then halfback Bobby Mitchell (I saw him go up for a ball numerous times with 2-3 guys from the other team and come down with it). When Mitchell was traded to the Redskins for the rights to Ernie Davis, he was turned into a flanker, and went into the Hall OF Fame as one.

    But what Jim Brown was known for was seemingly being stopped on the field when a few guys were holding him up. Then a few more would come over. But they couldn't get him down and he kept moving his legs. And 10-15 seconds later, Jim Brown would come out of that group running with the ball. It was so outrageous that you couldn't help but laugh. Happened at least a dozen times a year. Sam Huff was the All-Pro Giant middle linebacker, and one of his best know quotes was in talking about Brown and another All-Star FB, the Packers' Jim Taylor. Huff said something to the effect that he could tackle Taylor, but with Jim Brown all he could do was hold onto him and try to slow him up until 4 or 5 of Huff's teammates could jump on Brown…..and sometimes even that didn't work.

    Saying Jim Brown was a great runner/receiver because of his teammates blocking is like saying Michael Jordan was a great basketball player because of his teammates. In both cases their teammates were well above average players and their coaches are HOF'ers. But those guys were great and would have been great no matter what team they were on.

    Ty Cobb was an SOB that actually murdered a guy in Cleveland. But many that were alive at the time will tell you that he was a greater baseball player then Babe Ruth.

    Sometimes you have to separate the sportsman's accomplishments from his personality.

    NEVER try to cheapen what Jim Brown did. Not as long as there are people alive that saw him play.

  • jimkanicki

    hey carl. it was not my intention to diminish brown; his runs speak for themselves. i was really just observing that the linemen some solid line play.

    here's the play that left a mark. look how hard schafrath is chugging. like.. when's the last time you saw a lineman sprint?* and then 25 yards later is hickerson just looking for someone to hit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6cCXNBeVfc#time=96s

    nope not intending to take away from brown.

    * please no clips of terrence cody.

  • Believelander

    I think Mike Holmgren separated Jim Brown's accomplishments from his personality, then made the decision that while Brown the icon deserved to be part of the Browns organization, and the Browns would benefit from his association, that his legend did not excuse his cantankerous influences. I can't help but wonder if Mike could've handled Jim better or if Brown was predisposed to dislike Holmgren. Who knows.

    the man is still the greatest who ever played.

  • Teddy G’s

    blah blah,,,Carl…Brown did it himself? LMAO ROFLMAO LOL LMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, yes any back can make some guys miss and sometimes run them over, but thats the reason you have the o line, so the running back at least stands a chance. you are mildly retarded if you dont give some credit to the hustle of the o line.

  • Kicktoe

    Perhaps the most shocking quote in the Jim Brown letter was that he golfs at "The Dump" on the corner of Chagrin and Green. Then again, I'm sure the staff treats him a bit better than they treat me…meaning they smile.

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