Tribe Town: Hitler’s favorite baseball team is back, and as potentially slightly above average as ever

by Cleveland Frowns on April 2, 2013

Back in the 1920’s, the Nazis figured out that if you showed folks enough pictures of a race of people looking like something less than human, it would be easier to get away with treating that race as something less than human.

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White people in the United States had picked up on the same idea since before the abolition of slavery, and from the late 1920s into the 1950s, Jim Crow imagery was commonly employed by all major American animation houses, including Disney, MGM, and Warner Brothers, to ridicule “the appearance, behavior, and intelligence of African Americans,” so as to “buttress Jim Crow laws and Jim Crow etiquette, … dehumanize Blacks, and legitimize[] patterns of prejudice, discrimination, and segregation.”

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This time period was the height of the Jim Crow Era in the U.S., and also the time period in which Cleveland’s Major League Baseball team — named “Indians” by local sportswriters in 1915, in the wake of the Indian wars and in a hail of mocking war cries and scalping jokes — adopted the Chief Wahoo logo, a grinning, hook-nosed, now fire engine red caricature of a Native American that took its current form in 1951.

1915 Plain Dealer cartoon

Wahoo

 

Now it’s 2013, and if the “Indians” name isn’t bad enough, Cleveland baseball fans are still forced to choke down their Major League Baseball along with this Jim Crow/Third Reich relic that incredibly remains an official symbol of the franchise despite constant protest by Native Americans and other opponents of institutionalized racism and genocide mocking. The last time he commented publicly on the issue, Indians owner Larry Dolan affirmed that Chief Wahoo is not being “phased out,” and explained that there’s no problem with the logo because certain Natives tell him so when he asks them about it while they’re entertaining him at “Indian casinos.”

But even if you can get past the Hitler’s favorite baseball team thing, there’s also that being a Cleveland baseball fan in today’s MLB is like playing in a perennial poker tournament where you’re forced to compete with at most half the chips of your top competitors. This year, even after a surprise off-season spending spree, the Indians $82 million payroll is the tenth-lowest in the league, roughly one third of what the Dodgers and Yankees will pay to field a lineup of world class baseball players, and roughly half of what ten more teams, including both of last year’s World Series teams and 6 of 8 of last year’s Divisional Round participants, will pay to do the same.

These economic conditions explain not only last year’s MLB playoff results, but also, among other things, the following:

  • Why the last 21 World Series since the Cincinnati Reds title in 1990 have been won by a team from a media market (with a TV contract/revenue base) bigger than Cleveland’s;
  • Why, since the late-nineties, Cleveland has lost every single home grown baseball star it’s ever had, including Albert Belle, Jim Thome, Manny Ramirez, C.C. Sabathia, Cliff Lee, and Victor Martinez, with little to no hope of keeping any of them;

At this point it’s become crystal clear that the best a Cleveland Indians fan can hope for is that the franchise gets really lucky. Which is why it’s somewhat hard to tell if Indians fans should be insulted by last season’s “What If?” ad campaign, or applaud its honesty.

In any event, the Indians marketing department has upped the ante on brazenness this season by claiming that the cradle of American football, a place that continues to sell out Browns games despite a decade-plus of unimaginable soul-rending incompetence, is actually a “Tribe Town,” even though Progressive Field was more than half empty last year, with attendance the second-worst for a season since the team moved from Municipal Stadium in 1994.

This bold marketing strike looks to be more than anything a function of how low the bar has been set in Cleveland, by Major League Baseball and the Indians themselves, as well as by the Browns and Cavaliers, who haven’t finished above .500 since 2007 and 2010, respectively. Terry Pluto illustrates this phenomenon well (and plays right to the Indians marketing dept.’s hand) by having taken two columns in the last three days to explain that the 2013 Indians should be “worth watching” because they shouldn’t be as godawfully horrible as they were last season, and might be in theoretical contention for a playoff spot for “much of the summer.”

Still, despite all the excitement over new manager Terry Francona, free agent additions Nick Swisher, Michael Bourn and Mark Reynolds, and having gotten anything at all in trade for the most recently departed All Star, Shin Soo Choo, Pluto says that the Indians won’t make the playoffs, the folks at Baseball Prospectus have them penciled in for 81 wins, and Plain Dealer beat writer Paul Hoynes picks them to finish in fourth place in their own division.

So will the 2013 Cleveland Indians break the magic .500 mark, and get a grip on the brass ring of semi-relevance? Was the Dolans’ uncharacteristic off-season spending spree something that could represent sustainable success? Or was it just a desperate shot to keep from falling into the void of complete irrelevance after a season in which public perception of the franchise hit a modern low; a craven and ultimately doomed grab for limited attention and entertainment dollars in an otherwise barren sports landscape?

Admittedly, MLB’s skewed economics make it really hard for me to care, and the organization’s insistence on clinging to Chief Wahoo makes it impossible. So hooray. Go to hell, Tribe. Baseball is great. Major League Baseball is terrible. And the Cleveland Indians, Hitler’s favorite baseball team, are the absolute pits.

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UPDATE: Cleveland Indians President Mark Shapiro: “Chief Wahoo isn’t going anywhere.”

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RELATED: The Curse of Chief Wahoo: Putting lie to the franchise’s Louis Sockalexis myth, Mayor Frank Jackson’s Office on its participation in “dialogue” on the Wahoo issue, Indians owner Larry Dolan on Wahoo, and more.

  • BIKI024

    while I’m starting to come around on your stance of the negative connotations of Chief Wahoo, don’t agree that the Yankees have “world-class athletes”, or any more than the Tribe do. they are old, battered and broken down. again, for those of you following at home, the lead pipe lock of the century is the Yankees UNDER 86 wins, it will be a long brutal season for the humble fans of the Spanks, can’t wait to see them struggle, especially Mr. Crispy Creme (CC) himself. #YankeeSweats

    conversely, i also feel real good about the Tribe over 77.5 and made a play on it, but until they change the team name/mascot we’re still at mercy of the Curse! #RollTribe

    • mo_by_dick

      Agreed about the Yankees. If we’re talking relative to the rest of MLB, I’m counting one, maybe two current world-class baseball players on their active roster. I also see Ben Revere, Vernon Wells, and one of the Nixes. Had a good LOL seeing what their record-setting payroll ran out there as a starting lineup yesterday.

      • BIKI024

        feel bad for Texeira, hearing he’s out for the season. but there’s not a team in sports i love to see lose more than the Yankees. my all-time favorite Cleveland sports memory is the Tribe taking them out in the 07 Playoffs, that was the best

        • bupalos

          That was the best.

        • NeedsFoodBadly

          You live in NY, right? I’m curious as to why you root for the Jets and not the Yankees. Or are you a Mets fan?

          How does that break down in NY anyways? Seems like folks in the city root for the Jets and folks outside root for the Giants – am I wrong about that? Is there some sort of breakdown for the baseball teams?

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            i think you’ll find that nassau and suffolk counties are the only ones with a majority of jets fans. i think that holds for mets too: more long island-ish.

            edit: per this famous map, only nassau is jets country.

          • BIKI024

            i root for all NY teams except the Yankees, mainly because of what Frownie referred to above about big market teams having all the advantages. individually I like several of the players, Jeter, Cano, Mariano to name a few, but collectively it’s very frustrating to hear their fans gloat and gloat and gloat when much of their success has been due to them having large checkbooks. although those 3 guys mentioned above are all homegrown talent that they rewarded for their contributions. Robbie bout to get PAID!

            and the Mets, they’re just so hopeless, it’s hard not to root for them.

      • bupalos

        I also see about 10 other teams that will underperform and be jumping at the chance to send their best players off to the Yanks right after the allstar break. The Yanks lineup is built to fall apart. But the organization is built to put it back together in about 2 seconds.

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          “But the organization is built to put it back together in about 2 seconds” is all that’s really relevant here.

          • BIKI024

            how are they built to put it back together in about 2 seconds exactly? if that were the case they would’ve done so this past offseason. in addition, their farm is fairly depleted of top-tier talent, so not sure why teams would do business with them.

          • bupalos

            Apparently Discus won’t let you just reply with a dollar sign.

        • mo_by_dick

          I would disagree that the organization is built to put it back together — they’re pretty low on talent in the minor leagues to acquire big-time pieces, and it looks like the Dodgers are becoming the destination for these types of superstar salary dumps (see Carl Crawford and Hanley Ramirez). From what I’ve read, NYY wasn’t even really in play for the big free agents this season, despite all of them playing positions of need (thinking Greinke, Upton, Hamilton here).

          They’re still the Evil Empire, but they’re looking at a bunch of dead money on the books right now, and I think the spend-all-the-time days are over for them. Their down cycles will be shorter because of their brand, but there’s no doubt they’re in a down cycle at the moment.

          • BIKI024

            good thing Frowns had you on his podcast, you know your stuff!

          • bupalos

            I agree they are in (potentially) about as bad a position as they could be in as some of those contracts are truly abominable. And then would note parenthetically that that’s still a better position than the tribe. And that we’ll just see in August whether they were quite as constricted as it might look on paper.

          • Jim

            The Yankees did not spend big this offseason despite the major holes on their roster specifically because they are attempting to avoid the repeat luxury tax offenses built into the collective bargaining agreement. A good read on this can be found here:

            http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/page/rumblings120113/why-yankees-red-sox-spending-big

            Their new found “thriftiness” is most likely a one time thing. I expect them to spend big and often next offseason.

          • nj0

            What Jim said. This is just short term distress as the NYY adapt from the old system to the new.

            Their spending has been capped, but all that means is that their payrolls won’t dwarf those of the other big spenders. Yankees will be fine. Mark 4:25.

          • BIKI024

            they may eventualy “be fine” but not this year, and that’s all I was referring to.

          • nj0

            I agree. Wasn’t disagreeing with you or your point. That’s why I respond to Jim rather than you.

            They should be an average team, maybe even bad if injuries and/or the AL East get ’em. I’m not a betting man, but if I were I’d be on that under total you posted earlier.

            Just pointing out that the Yanks’ shortcoming aren’t just because of personnel but because of transitioning to the new CBA.

          • BIKI024

            no it’s due to personnel decisions by current ownership. No way this would’ve happened if one of Cleveland’s finest was still alive and in charge. R.I.P Boss

            and their farm has been mediocre the past several years, otherwise their pitching and depth would be a heckuva lot better.

  • Cevap

    Maybe I’m tripping but I just saw two Indians players in the Top 100 on that link you’ve put up.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Good catch, Bourn and Asdrubal are 73 and 80-something. Post fixed. Point is still the same.

      • BIKI024

        what is your point exactly? since the roster isn’t stacked with Top 100 talent that fans shouldn’t root for their hometown team? of course my only wish is for the Tribe to win it all, but I follow them for many more reasons than wins and losses. if you were a true baseball fan you might understand.

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          No, the point is that fans shouldn’t root for their hometown team until the hometown team ditches the Nazi/Jim Crow relic, and even then, MLB’s economics continue to make it increasingly impossible for a Cleveland fan to invest in the sport.

          If the Indians wanted to do anything right, they’d band with their small market brethren and force meaningful change to the system.

          • BIKI024

            ok fine, and I get you need to do what you need to do to drive your point home, but Hitler’s favorite team? come on bro.

            i suggest you all go into my boy’s latest business venture: @SocietyOnE4th and talk directly to Terry Francona about your concerns about the Wahoo logo or the batting order, he’s on record saying that he’s going to be a regular as he lives on the block. #ClevelandRocks

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            I have a morals clause in my contract that prohibits me from entering any establishment with the word “society” in its name.

            Anyway, there’s simply no way that the team with Chief Wahoo as a logo isn’t Hitler’s favorite team. Only a damned fool would argue otherwise.

          • BIKI024

            morals clause, lol. what’s wrong with the name? the place is dope. haters gonna hate.

          • NeedsFoodBadly

            I think the Marge Schott-era Cincinatti Reds could be in the running for first place in Hitler’s heart.

  • Steve

    As right as you might be, the Hitler conversation does more harm than good. I can’t think of a single time where invoking Hitler didn’t just rile people up/piss them off, instead of promoting constructive discussion. You’ve proven you can write intelligently on this issue, you don’t need to reach for the hot poker.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Predictable and lame response. What we’re talking about here — dehumanizing caricatures — is something that Hitler actually did, a page right out of the Nazi playbook. That should be pointed out. It isn’t pointed out enough. Probably in part because of predictable and lame responses like this. Color me unbowed. It’s 2013 and Chief Wahoo is still on Cleveland’s Major League Baseball uniforms. If anything ever called for reaching for the hot poker.

      • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

        I know, I know. I “reached for the hot poker” by calling your response “predictable and lame.” How can people worry about Chief Wahoo when there are other people grabbing so many hot pokers on the internet with such impunity?

        • Dave Gram

          I absolutely love your blog. That being said, anytime someone plays the “Hitler” card, I immediately disregard their argument. No one is “like Hitler”. You don’t know “what baseball team Hitler would like”. It’s pure sensationalism and…sorry to say…it’s garbage.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            Your loss, I guess. I don’t know how anyone could look at the illustration(s) above and conclude any different.

          • SteamingPileOfCraphonsoThorpe

            Frowns, I’m going to step to your defense (many days late), and say that Steve and Dave, while making some relevant points, are off-base.

            To Steve’s overarching point that Hitler mentions don’t allow constructive discussions, I firmly disagree – antagonistic,easily excitable people don’t allow constructive discussions, not the topic. The Nazi Party, specifically the Minister of Propaganda Goebbels, recognized early on that political cartoons that caricatured the Jews were one way to dehumanize that group of people to the general population. So, if I see only the “other”-ness of Mr. Goldberg, rather than his being a good and helpful neighbor, it’s much easier for me to rationalize putting him on a train to Auschwitz, since he’s really very different from me. While Chief Wahoo is most certainly not a tool of political propaganda now, if it ever was, it is still a caricature that emphasizes “other”-ness, an alien, red-faced, grinning fool. This is all coming from a guy who used to be in the “why does anybody care about a silly logo? I love the Chief, he makes me think of baseball, hot dogs, and my skinny whiteness in the summer” camp, by the way.

            To address Dave’s point, of course the comparison is sensationalism – if by “sensationalism”, you mean a hook to catch the readers and get them to at least read and consider what’s been written! A little over the top? Sure. Chief Wahoo != Stereotypical Jew Face on rat’s body, in the sense that the purpose of Wahoo was not to incite the continued extermination of Native Americans; but people read and commented on your article, so, job done? Guess so.

      • Steve

        I get all that, I really do. But it says a lot that your first move is to go for the insult, and then shout your point again instead of understanding what I’m saying.

        All I’m saying is that Hitler doesn’t lead to constructive discussion, no matter how brilliantly you write or well thought out your point is, even if Hitler is completely apropos. And you know this too.

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          No, Steve, really, I don’t know that. What I do know is that whenever someone mentions Nazi Germany in an argument, no matter how relevant or probative the reference is, that it’s highly likely that someone will show up to propagate the comforting trope that such references are off limits no matter what.

          But none of it changes the fact that Chief Wahoo is the same kind of drawing that the Nazis made. It probably can’t be repeated enough at this point, and again, you can’t explain why you want me to go out of my way to avoid calling attention to this truth other than by vaguely referring to the fact that sometimes some people are idiots (Agreed!). If anything “says a lot” about this exchange, it’s that. There’s no sugarcoating it. Predictable and lame response is predictable and lame. The reason I’m not understanding what you’re saying is that there’s nothing there to stand under. Sometimes in an argument someone is just wrong.

          • Steve

            I never said that such references are off limits. You’re pulling that out of you know where. If you can’t even properly summarize my argument, you have no ability to say it is “just wrong”.

            Invoking Hitler is trolling, again, even if the comparison is apt. It brings more histrionics than rational thought. And again, you know this. You’re the guy who calls out most of Cleveland sports on its B.S. and trolling.

            I’ll tap out of this one because it’s just simply not worth it, and we’re going in circles at this point. I’ve read your exact same argument three times now, made mine multiple times, and have been called lame twice.

            I think you’re absolutely right that Wahoo needs to go, and the logo and team name were created under abhorrent circumstances.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            “I never said that such references are off limits. … Invoking Hitler is trolling. … it brings more histrionics than rational thought.”

            If I really am having a hard time summarizing your argument, it’s clear enough that I’m not the only one. Anyway, chin up, I’m not calling you lame. I’m just calling this particular argument lame. And predictable.

      • alexb

        Pete they’re right. I mean so are you but I can already envision how the next time your on the radio with Booms it’s gonna go down. He’s gonna bring this up and say “Pete thinks we’re all Nazi loving white supremacists cause we’ve been watching Indians baseball all these years”. Of course he’s a bloviating ignoramus and just the sound of his voice has me reaching for the dial (Bull and Fox guy here), but his consistently banal arguments on this subject will have immediate sympathy with listeners cause he’ll have you in quotes talking about “Hitlers favorite baseball team”. It’s not going to go well and neither is the cause. As far as I can tell you’re the sole personality pushing this issue so when you get taken out who’s the voice of the movement now? Nobody else on radio, tv or web honestly gives a fck about it therefore there’s never really a big push to end what is long overdue…..an overhaul of the Cleveland baseball franchise starting with a mascot change and/or possibly a name change. Obviously I’m not the only one here that see’s how polarizing it is when you surmise the Indians “must” have been Adolf’s favorite baseball organization. Was the song right? Was springtime in Germany really HItlers favorite time of the year? lol

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      I can understand why someone would say this, and I think it’s a worthwhile point with respect to many situations where one would invoke Hitler, but I do think it promotes constructive discussion here where we’re talking about a logo that’s such a direct descendant of the caricatures that the Nazis employed. I think it can be just as dangerous to make any possible comparison with the Nazis verboten, as you seem to want to do.

  • Kamov

    I thought the “Caucasians” would be Hitler’s fave?

    http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Caucasians_logo.jpg

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Eyes too dark, nose too big. Hair probably dyed. Hitler says pass.

      • http://twitter.com/ChrisInCLE Chris Mc

        Better?

  • mo_by_dick
  • bupalos

    While not necessarily one to engage in it myself, mostly because of my admittedly questionable addiction to all Cleveland sports, I’ve come to support your over-the-top iconoclasm on this issue. None of it is really wrong.

    But mostly in the interest of encouraging your rather healthy primal scream, I’ll play the Washington Generals here and offer up some good sound fundamentals that you can bewilder with more high-flying Hitler-dunks.

    To wit: Things are complicated. This IS the team of Larry Doby. This IS the team of Stanley Coveleski. I’m not sure Hitler would be as all-in as you suggest looking at the sum total, nor that someone can’t sit in those stands and rightfully feel as much pride in Cleveland baseball’s history as shame. Is that ancient history? Yeah, but frankly so is the logo, something embedded a long time ago that is not as easy for a perennially struggling franchise to uproot as you might hope. Organizations like this rarely are capable of making principled decisions that fly in the face of their short-term interest. Cleveland is in no way special in it’s organizational cowardice on this issue.

    The Sockalexis myth can be and has been shown to be a total fabrication, and the attempts to defend the logo as fun or salutary equally preposterous. But they are as much efforts to truly change the meaning (and the meaning is everything here) as efforts to defend the indefensible, an attempt to put a new surface on something that itself at this point is really only surface. And like it or not, undo it as you can (and probably should), there are now probably more people who truly believe that the Indians name and identity was honorific. In some limited sense, that does help make it honorific. Faced with a very tough organizational decision, The Indians have gone for a noble lie, and, seemingly, a slow phase-out. Does this work? A little, but not really.

    In sum, babies, bathwater…. Jesus…help me out here P.

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Thanks, I guess, but why should the Dolans get any credit for Larry Doby? You bringing it up just highlights how laughable the idea is that the Dolans would ever countenance anything like it.

      You can say that Cleveland isn’t special in its organizational cowardice on the issue, yet somehow it’s the only organization that has anything like Wahoo going for it.

      And the Sockalexis myth is especially insulting to the real story of Sockalexis, who was the subject of brutal taunts by fans, and drank himself into his grave while he was in his twenties. The best you can do here is hand out gold stars for an attempt to wipe away fingerprints. Which is to say that sometimes it just is what it is, and this is one of those times.

      • bupalos

        >>>Thanks, I guess, but why should the Dolans get any credit for Larry Doby?>>>

        They shouldn’t, but this points to one of our other points of permanent disagreement, the relative importance of the “owner.” Professional baseball in Cleveland does get some smidgeon of credit for Doby.

        >>>yet somehow it’s the only organization that has anything like Wahoo going for it.>>>

        I don’t consider Redskins or really even Braves any better. They were and are all the same thing, objectification of a minority ethnic group for it’s identity as perceived and perpetuated by the majority. Wahoo is your dopey and drunk but friendly Indian, the others are your Indian as bloodthirsty animal. Frankly Nazi anti-semite propaganda conforms much more closely to the later, if you’re counting.

        And if Cleveland is the only one with something quite exactly like this going for it, it’s frankly because it’s the only city that had a prominent Native American play on it’s team. That’s really kind of the original innocence that created the original sin here, isn’t it? It wasn’t Cleveland or the Cleveland ownership that taunted Sockalexis, it was the opposition. The team initially (prior to spiders) came to be referred to as the Indians by the opposition; not by it’s own doing (beyond truly being essentially the first team to play an American Indian.) Later the organization deliberately tried to go back to a more exciting period to wipe away the Spider stench, and the rest is history.

        The Sockalexis myth is like most myths; an embellishment of a much more complex and dirty reality. It was steered and crafted to serve a purpose, but not crafted out of whole cloth. There is both truth and falsehood there, and in the end the myth does in some ways change the reality. Your alternative myth-making, which posits Cleveland as uniquely racist and uniquely deserving of chastisement, has no less falsehood involved. While I don’t think anyone who gives the issue 20 minutes time can very honorably disagree with the conclusion that it’s past time for Wahoo to go, that he should ideally go as loudly and apologetically as possible, and that he is a stain on the ballclub, the social legacy of Cleveland’s professional baseball team is not completely overborne by the smell of this moronic cartoon.

        It’s opening day again. Could be the year. Go Cleveland. Get better.

        • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

          Cleveland is uniquely deserving of chastisement in the sense that Cleveland’s is the only city that has Chief Wahoo. That really can’t be argued. Redskins and Braves are bad, too, but Wahoo in its own way is quite plainly worse.

          Supporting the baseball team despite its stance on Wahoo on “home team” grounds is to put one’s nationality before his humanity. I don’t know how that’s supposed to work.

          • MichaelTheRed

            It is my personal opinion and from someone who is not native American it means little I get it….but the only name per se I see a problem with is the Redskins. The only mascot/logo I see a problem with is the Indians. If the Redskins changed their name, and the Indians ditched that preening red fairy…I think the controversy would end. Atlanta imo has no issue with their name or logo. I think they honor the native americans properly and as far as I have read, the origins of the name are not rooted in early 20th century racist cartoon mockery like wahoo is. Honestly Frowns I never knew about the origins of wahoo till I came to this site, very enlightening thank you.

          • bupalos

            Sorry, the majority does not get to decide which objectifications of the minority are valid and honorable and which are not. The reality is that no minority ethnic group, especially one reduced to near silence by genocide, has any place as a sport mascot. Ranging warrior Indians in facepaint with tomahawks next to lions and tigers and bears and pirates and snakes may seem more “noble” to you than our dopey red caricature. It really isn’t.

          • MichaelTheRed

            Your right I agree. Just eyeballing the protests over the years it was always about the redskins and Indians, hence my point. The Braves, at least from what I’ve seen, don’t seem to get all that much attention from the native americans which to me implies that while they may not be ecstatic about the name they don’t find it offensive like the word redskin and the wahoo caricature. Whenever I read about native americans protesting the Indians it always had to do with our mascot, not really the name. “OF COURSE” if a native American tells me he’s offended by any mention of his culture as it pertains to a professional sports culture I completely understand and it should go. But if they don’t have a problem with the name “Indians”, just with our mascot…then we shouldn’t change the name. If we ditch the mascot and actually do replace it with something that honors that culture, and they’re ok with it, could we say that’s problem solving?

          • http://twitter.com/TenCentBeers 10cBeers

            Really enjoyed this back and forth.

          • bupalos

            Wahoo is not worse unless you think being portrayed as a dopey drunk lazy human is worse than being portrayed as a bloodthirsty savage or vicious animal. Since there really shouldn’t be any moral preference with this kind of objectification, I find your declension unpersuasive and your simplification of a recognition of real and undeniable complexity into a case of homerism uncharacteristically propagandistic.

            But then again, I suppose if there is a place for propaganda, this would qualify. I’ll not stay the grinding of the axe; though still I say go Cleveland, get better.

          • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

            I appreciate your effort here, I really do, but now you’re badly overreaching.

            Just look at Wahoo. There’s no question what it is, and what it’s a relic of. It’s more than just portrayal of a “dopey drunk lazy human.” It’s aggressively dehumanizing caricature in the tradition of the Nazis and Jim Crow. That’s the real point, and I don’t know what you’ve really accomplished here but to distract from that.

            And as much as the Braves and Redskins have very little to do with the main point here, there’s at least a way to look at those examples as dignified representations of a warrior class. There’s simply no such alternative with Wahoo. None at all. Not remotely. Which again is a subsidiary issue.

          • bupalos

            While I agree it’s ancillary, you’re the one at pains to say Cleveland is uniquely the worstest– which also requires you to be have the skill to be able to somehow look at this as a dignified representation. And requires you to ignore one portion of the historical context wrt the Indians while emphasizing another.

            I guess to the extent that we are talking about a logo and a logo alone, I have practically no disagreement. The Indians have the worst logo because however they’ve cleaned it up and moved it to the background, there is no way to look around the mockery. Open the discussion to the whole history and context surrounding these identities and I think the picture regarding the teams virtue does change somewhat. Not nearly as much as the team would like to claim, but somewhat. Open it further to the entire social history of professional baseball in Cleveland and it changes a lot, to the point that I think just telling the franchise to go to hell is baby bath stuff.

            But Sweet Jesus, I’ll be glad when they dump this piece of crap. Until they do, I’m good with wherever you go with this, be it Germany or beyond.

  • mo_by_dick

    MLB and the White Sox are announcing the Civil Rights Game in a live press conference right now.

  • Brian

    How come you don’t get offended by Notre Dame being called the Fighting Irish? Hypocrite.

    • mo_by_dick

      I hope the ‘like’ on this comment was merely an appreciation of the classical nature of the trolling involved, and not an acknowledgment of the merits of its content.

      • bupalos

        Yeah I think it was a friendly trolling. I’m going to go ahead and like it.

      • p_forever

        it had to be a friendly trolling up; in the alternative, it was really so so dumb that we should feel a little bad for the person that wrote it, and maybe offer to help somehow (i would be good for an hour of tutoring per week).

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Who says I’m not? Wait, are you literate? Who typed that for you?

      On the off-chance that you’re 8-years-old or younger, I’ll briefly point out that the leprechaun is mythical character, which, along with the
      “Fighting Irish” name, was chosen by Irish people to represent themselves. Though if I heard from a segment who were offended I would probably get on board.

    • bupalos

      I think a better parallel would be if Catholicism went extinct by protestant genocide, then there was a team in 2060 called the Irish Catholics, and half the fans wore pope hats and got down on their knees before field goal attempts. And perhaps had a halftime show where guys dressed as bishops chased little boys all over the field.

      • MichaelTheRed

        I want that scene in a movie now. The whole bishops chasing around little boys at halftime. The Farrely bros should do it in their next movie. I “will” lmao.

    • MichaelTheRed

      Maybe because Notre Dame is a catholic school that has decided to call itself the fighting Irish? Kind of an apples and oranges kind of thing no? Maybe I’m wrong but have the Cleveland Indians been owned and operated throughout their entire history by Native Americans?

  • Jonnn

    Any team would have had Swisher at SOME price, so the comment about “nobody else wanted [him]” also rings true for every free agent ever. Winner’s curse and all that.

  • thebearchoo

    If changing the team name/logo means I don’t have to hear or see the phrase “Roll Tribe” ever again, count me as on board. Cleveland is not Alabama (although it’d be fitting with the frowns theme here).
    Anyway, really looking forward to the season. Crossing my fingers we’ll have the same five guys in the rotation in a couple months.

  • ChuckKoz

    I do think the new concession prices is an intriguing move by ownership.

    But sadly, I don’t think ownership will ever do the right thing on wahoo. There is a big part of the fan base that loves wahoo. I say this from my experience at spring training this year, where I had several conversations – and overheard several others – where the fans spoke so much of their love of it. And I think that causes too much fear on the marketing aspect.

    • BIKI024

      the concession price drop was nominalm but sure it was a nice gesture

  • CleveLandThatILove

    According to Hoynsie, the block C will be on the cap for home games now, too. Maybe the little guy is being phased out slowly so as not to rile up the masses.
    Looks like I’m going to be at the famous MapRoom tonight watching the game with some of the younger warehous-ey set if anybody is around…

  • Henry Brown

    Fantastic work here. Frowns at his best

    • http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/ Cleveland Frowns

      Thanks, Henry.

  • rulesboy

    I’m sorry I’m late to this post, because it has to be one of my Frowns favorites, ever. And, finally, a useful Hitler analogy.

  • Shadow_play

    Frowns, it’s nice to see your continued efforts to fight Wahoo. Keep the dialogue alive.

    I think of the Cartoons above that show the “Jim Crow” characters with Bugs Bunny and Popeye. Those are rightfully seen as a dark part of the Warner Brother’s and whoever runs Popeye’s history . They aren’t sold or promoted. They can only be found unathorized on the net. I think of Disney’s “Song of The South” which has never been officially released due to it’s inherent racism.

    How is it that we are able to effectively banish the above, but we can’t get rid of Wahoo?

    • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

      slightly off-topic: i managed to find a copy of song of the south. it’s hardly a danger to our culture. it’s simply a time capsule from a different time and place reflecting the fact the things were much different in the 1880s georgia (the setting of the movie). are the portrayals of newly freed slaves (deferential and servile) on target? i dont know, maybe? are the portrayals of poor white trash (barefoot, puppy drowning kids) on target? i dont know, maybe?

      pretending that that time didn’t happen is absurd. even pretending that 1946 audiences weren’t pretty much ok with it is absurd. i understand why disney doesnt release it, but i think its decision is reflective of a cultural immaturity on the subject more than anything else.

      ps shadow, this isnt directed at you; understand youre just correctly reporting that disney has never distributed song of the south. you prompted the response because i saw this dangerous film over the weekend.

      • Shadow_play

        All the more reason that the current use of Wahoo is terrible. Disney won’t release the film because it might potentially be offensive, while the Indians continue to use Wahoo which is definitely offensive.

        • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

          precisely the point i didnt make. !! disney’s 1946 movie is one thing; the current event of wahoo is much different.

          • Shadow_play

            I wasn’t saying it was a point you made. It’s a point I’m making. The 1946 movie is a product of the past that Disney doesn’t market. Wahoo should be a product of the past that the Indians don’t market.

          • https://twitter.com/jimkanicki jimkanicki

            [was agreeing with you.]

          • Shadow_play

            [Gotcha]
            Something was lost in the comprehension/wording I guess.

          • http://www.facebook.com/bjcorbitt BJ Corbitt

            I find myself in the odd position of disagreeing with both the Indians’ and Disney’s positions. I think Disney is being knee-jerk by trying to lock up a cultural relic and act like it never existed; I’d prefer to see the film released with some appropriate preceding commentary on the DVD about how it should be seen in context of its own time. No Uncle Remus imagery would be used to promote the release, and if they really wanted to go the PR extra mile, they could donate the proceeds to the NAACP. (Too unrealistic?)

            At the same time, the Indians have no defense here. That logo is terrible, and there’s no artistic merit in it that justifies profiting off of it (not the case for SotS).

            I’m not sure what the uniting principle of my positions here are. Maybe we’re just still so fractured over racial imagery that we lack the ability to think clearly about it as a society. A white ball-club owner can look at a red Sambo and convince himself it’s fine, while a movie studio is so frightened of offending that it tries to deny its own history.

            There’s also the unfortunate demographic reality that Native Americans number far fewer than African-Americans, and can have their concerns more easily dismissed.

  • Farsighted

    Perhaps Mangini could sketch the Dolan’s a new logo? I hear he’s the best, particularly when he’s got a fresh can of Skoal and a draft simulator at the ready. If he’s busy trying to not blink on various ESPN TV sets, we could just change the name to the “Erics” in His honor?

  • dwhalen

    I’m interested in the argument that the name “indians” is now offensive in some regard as opposed to simply the cartoonish chief wahoo mascot. It’s somewhat baffling to me that we are sitting here talking about a name, with no derogatory or colloquial meaning behind it being offensive. not to long ago pete and I discussed my high school and it’s “rebel” mascot and the fact that it’s constantly under fire.

    Truthfully, racism may or may not have been exhibited in the initial creation of the name and/or caricature, but the semantics about what’s offensive and what isn’t are kind of exhausting.

    We can’t name a team “redskins” or “blackhawks” or “indians” because part of the connotation behind those names has negative implications? Even if the logos of 2 of the 3 are pretty accurate representations of what a full blooded native american chief looks like? That’s a crock of shit. Fill me in on what part of saying ROLLTRIBE is racist. And fill me on why someone saying “that hurts my feelings” is a good enough reason to blow up an entire organization or high school or college or whatever it may be. Seems fair to me that people need to quit worrying about things that don’t impact the way in which they’re able to live their daily lives. The tribe is a team we cheer for, but nonetheless, the oversensitivity and uproar over a cartoon fucking picture is entertaining. forgive me for seeming right wing on this topic ya’ll, but if you can’t wake up and go on with your day without having a twitch in your head about how much the indian name and logo offends you…well that’s a you problem.

    P.S. go irish, and the stupid looking “racist” leprechaun logo that picks on my lowly drunken heritage.

  • akira5652

    I commented on this website last year, arguing against the website’s host’s anti-Wahoo-ism. I’m taking a minor risk commenting on here again because, I guess, I am some kind of internet loser with nothing better to do other than comment on a fan’s blog.

    Chief Wahoo is not racism. If you think that the logo of the Indians is some type of in-your-face superiority, I guess, then, that you must possess some type of post-cultural analysis that is not afforded to the common man. I, mean, after all, according to the anti-Wahoo argument, the physical representation of a person has become more sacred than the image of Mohammed. It’s not about Native Americans. It’s about some guy’s white guilt. Native Americans can’t be represented by another race than by their own because they suffered some historical grievance that hasn’t been suffered by another culture or race.

    It’s a cartoon Native American. Let’s get rid of the Chief and banish him to some type of 20th Century folly museum along with Speedy Gonzalez.

    For an attorney whose writing is interesting and which is worth responding to, I find it a bit low-ball to compare it to Nazi propaganda. Chief Wahoo was not used to persecute or demean Native Americans.

    It’s a mascot; it’s not persecution. You confuse popular culture and/or representation with actual racism.

  • jim

    Really you guys need to stop crying over this you sound stupied. You can find something wrong with any team name and if its an animal I’m sure peta would speak up and end up sounding as stupied as you all do. Get over it. Gooo wahooooo!!!

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